Newb with a needle question

mtqiyrut

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Hello to you all.

Ian here 44 years from East Herts.

Working for a local publishing company with pressure & deadlines etc, brought about the lower back pain that first prompted me to try acupuncture.

My first experience some years back was great. I noticed the needles used were quite big/tall with what looked like brass octagonal heads. Anyway the effect was immediate and worthwhile.

A couple of weeks a go I started going to a local Chinese practice where the needles were nothing like that of my first visit - more like large sewing needles. I've been twice now and must confess, I'm a smidge disappointed with the results.

I don't know if any of you have any knowledge of these needles or practices?
 
Hi Ian

Traditionally, the needles used in Chinese style acupuncture usually have a wound copper handle, with a nub on the end, as opposed to style used in Japanese acupuncture, which have a straight, tube-shaped handle. These are usually more compact than the Chinese style. With greater accessibility to different needling styles and methods, practitoners are nowadays using a nix and match approach to needle selection, using what they would consider the right type for the job in hand.

This has come a long way from the time when a friend of mine used to make his own needles as none were available in the UK at the time!

Stick with it- backs can be funny things to work on. If there's no improvement at all after about six treatments, you might want to re-evaluate whether acupuncture is the right treatment for you. Make sure your practitioner is registered with a professional body such as the BAcC or ACTM, and is registered with the local authority for health and safety purposes. Currently anyone can call themselves an acupuncturist, so make sure your practitioner is properly trained to degree level, and has not just done some short weekend course!

Best wishes
David
 
Hi simsy!

You would have faster results with someone who practices combination therapies, i.e acupuncture and Tui Na, or Thai massage, or infact any bodywork. Acupuncture is very effective at releiving pain and correcting the imbalance, but a needle cannot stretch a muscle, nor can it release mobility problems caused by tightness or shortening of the muscle itself.

Also check out 'AcuC' The Acupuncture - Acutherapy Council, (formally UK Oreintal Medicine) This proffesional body specialises in Oriental Medicine and Physical Therapy. Nearly all registered practitioners here are traditionally trained and offer very effective forms of bodywork too!

For effective healing you must address the internal and external injury. Plus it will save you money on acupuncture alone!

Hope this helps

INDO
 
Ah, but not all back pain is musculoskeletal! I'd be interested in knowing how muscle stretching might resolve say, Kidney Qi deficiency, one of the leading causes of LBP in the elderly (according to the rules of TCM!). Correct pattern differentiation is the key to successful treatment, rather than combining methods ad hoc, hoping that one of them will work!
 
PURIST!

I have clinically tested Acupuncture and Bodywork seperately and lower back pain responds better with both.

Why try 6 acupuncture treatments to see if it works, when you can have 4 combined and it will works wonders

Simsy is not quite elderly yet
 
Ah, That'll be the "TCM" training coming through.

I think, Indo, you've hit on one of the main problems with the teaching of Oriental sytems in the UK. Acupuncture tends to be taught as a stand-alone system here, whereas in China we combined it with other therapies, including hot massage, stretches and so on. In fact a Chinese doctor is only qualified when proficient in many processes, acupuncture being just one.

As acupuncture has become more mainstream, and is taught in more and more universities here, the syllabus has to meet certain requirements over and above the acupuncture itself in order to tick the right boxes for governmental guidelines. This means less time is available to get on with the more important stuff. What this tends to mean is TuiNa, Qigong, Herbs and "Bonesetting" which are all part of a doctors training in China, have to give way to other things.

We were quite lucky that our acupuncture course in the UK included therapeutic massage, which, funnily enough, I tend to use for almost all cases of back pain! Also having trained in and taught tai chi for over 15 years, I know just where to send folk that could benefit from a little "self-mobilisation"!

What this means of course, is a big market for CPD courses at considerable expense!
 
thats why i'm glad i trained where i did! Tuina, Acupuncture, Auricular, Oriental Bodywork.

I regularly use 3-4 therapies in a single session and get good results rather than just the use of one.

Plus some people will not like a specific therapy, so i have others at hand to gain the same results, makes the job more interesting and challenging too!

A great painter can paint a masterpiece in just one colour!, but a great painter with the colours of a rainbow can paint the world

INDO
 
This is interesting. I was unaware of kidney failure until my first visit to the current Chinese acupuncturist a couple of weeks ago. "Oh really why do you think my kidneys are failing"? I asked. "Because you are old" came her non sugar coated eastern style reply.

Passing water seems to be connected to the kidney failure also in as much as the stopping of the water.

I had (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the LBP was solely due to stress.

Going back to the needle variations (first posting), the one's used on me 7 or 8 years ago had these large hexagonal heads, which I summised were so effective as they exhumed, transported and stored the stress as it were. I wonder where one would get hold of such needles these days?



*(Apologies to mods for registration mix up)
 
Hi Simsy, and welcome aboard.

In classical Chinese medicine theory, the body is thought to age in stages of 8 years for men, and 7 years for women. 10 x 8 = 80 years, which equated to an "Immortal", someone living almost twice the life expectancy in the Middle Ages. Being 44 (or almost 6 x 8) that means you are definitely on the slippery slope to old age. The Chinese believe that we are born with a finite amount of energy which acts like a pilot light in a gas boiler. Once you are over 40, this energy (jing) is half gone, sooner if you've been caning booze, fags and women. This energy is supposed to be stored in the "Kidneys" and acts as a catalyst for body metabolism. Once it begins to get diminished, the "boiler" starts to run less effectively- we might start to feel colder than we did when younger, or we don't have the stamina we used to. As "Chinese Kidneys" rule the lower back, hearing, the teeth, and urination, aging may be associated with disfunction in all or any of these areas. The Chinese would ask questions about all these functions, to see what the state of the jing is, and ascribe treatment accordingly.

There are other sources of LBP as well, especially if no other indications are present. Dull, aching low grade pain might be associated with invasion of Wind-Damp; sharp pain that improves with warmth might be Wind-Cold; stabbing pain could be Blood stagnation; pain that improves with movement could be Qi stagnation. You can see that a correct pattern diagnosis becomes important, as the treatment method depends on it.

In terms of passing water, getting up several times in the night would be a sign of Kidney deficiency in the elderly; if coupled with cold feelings it could be Kidney Yang Deficiency, if you're heating up it might be Kidney Yin deficiency. None of these patterns would respond well to physical therapy, whereas Blood Stagnation might, especially if you're a bit inactive.

The main thing to remember is that Chinese "Kidney" is not really the same as a western kidney, as it refers mainly to a collection of functions rather than the organ itself. If at 44 you are getting up several times, I'd recommend seeing a western doctor to rule out any serious problems.

Stress in Chinese medicine is said to deplete Kidney function, jam up qi flow and may cause digestive, heart or sleep problems. This might be similar to the vasoconstrictive effects of adrenaline creating problems elsewhere; definitely worth avoiding if possible.
 
I agree with Indo that a combination often works best. Even if the CAUSE isn't muscular, after a while the muscles will inevitably get tense, and massaging them will certainly help.

Incidentally, Tui Na is capable of much more than just 'muscle stretching' and can be used for deficiencies of all kinds, including Kidney Qi Deficiency - By working with the patient's Qi, using the acupoints and channels, we can treat the same range of conditions with tuina as with acupuncture... As you say, it is the diagnosis that is important - Both acupuncture and tuina need a good Chinese diagnosis to be effective...
 
Oh Yes! i successfully treated for 3 years in clinic before training in Acupuncture, and still find it more effective long term, its just very physical and the Acupuncture takes some of the strain.
 
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  36. Soul Relax Spa:
    โœจ Looking for a relaxing escape? โœ… Click Here Meet๐ŸŒธTina๐ŸŒธIsabella๐ŸŒธMonikaCall us today for the best treatment and service experience. Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates ! Call now โ˜Ž 289 - 298 - 5662โ˜Ž๏ธ Your ultimate relaxation awaits! โœจ
  37. SL Spa:
    ๐Ÿ’†โ€โ™€๐Ÿ’–WooHoo Wed๐Ÿ’– Ultimate destination for Asian massages๐ŸŽ‰ Two fab spots: Richmond Hill & Oakvilleโœจ Your passport to paradise with 10 enchanting girls fr China, HK, Japan & Korea โ€” ๐Ÿ†•Luna, Cindy, Coco,Cici, Jenny, Amber, JPN Yui, Akino, Jasmine & Lucyโ€” ready to pamper you๐ŸŽ๐Ÿ Ring us ๐Ÿ“ž647-695-6354 or text us ๐Ÿ“ฑ647-578-8169โœจ 160 East Beaver Cr., Unit 12, RichmondHill ๐Ÿ’ฐWhere Eastern charm meets Western comfort - your bliss awaits๐Ÿ™Œ
  38. Lulu1980:
    Phoenix Blossom Spa ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒน2 girls ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ5124 Dundas St W Etobicokeโ˜Ž๏ธ416-817-3366๐Ÿ‘ Table Shower Sea Salt Bath Body Scrub๐Ÿ˜˜ Japanese girl Nina โค๏ธ Natural Big Boobs 38 DD ๐Ÿ˜˜Pink Mini Nipples Hot body slide, super enjoyable๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜ very provocative service๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜, professional super Luna deep tissue massage, has therapeutic effect to loosen bones and relieve muscle pressure and will bring you unexpected service effects, she will bring you a little surprise๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜โค๏ธYou are welcome to make an appoint
  39. SpringGreen.:
    Today we have 5 girls on downtown Toronto 72 gerrard st west๏ผš๐Ÿ’‹๐Ÿ’‹ New girl gaga Serving The Queen ๐Ÿ’‹๐Ÿ’‹Bunny- Tanned Spanish beauty with large melons and a fun booty too Wendy- exotic goddess with a gymnasts body and corresponding flexibility Jennifer- Exotic beauty with... Call and text 647 891 0699 ask questions Thanks ๐Ÿ’‹๐Ÿ’‹
  40. Jennyโ€™s Spa:
    ๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’JENNYโ€™S SPA๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’ โœ…5170 DUNDAS STREET WESTโœ… ๐Ÿ‘ŒETOBICOKE ONTARIO M9A 1C4๐Ÿ‘Œ โ˜Ž๏ธ( 647-893-5196)โ˜Ž๏ธCall or Text โ˜Ž๏ธ( 437-888-3759)โ˜Ž๏ธCall Only (ETOBICOKE) OPEN 10am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY ๐Ÿ”ฅโœ…GRAND OPENING๐Ÿ’ฏNEW GIRLS EVERYDAY๐Ÿ”ฅEXCELLENT MASSAGE + SERVICE QUEENS NOW AVAILABLE AT JENNYโ€™S SPA FOR ALL YOUR MASSAGE AND SPECIAL EXTRA NEEDS๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’ฏ๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ”ฅโค๏ธ๐Ÿ‘Œ ๐Ÿ”ฅTWO BEAUTIFUL NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS EVERYDAY๐Ÿ”ฅ ๐Ÿ’ฏREAL PICTURES OF ATTENDANTS๐Ÿ’ฏ ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’‹Limited Time Special Promotion๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’‹ โœ…๐Ÿ’ฆ30 Minutes Nude Mass
  41. Red Rose Spa:
    ๐ŸŒธ We have 5 hot brown girls today ๐ŸŒธ MONICA, PAOLA, MALIYA, MONIKA, AMANDA, ASHA, JAZMINE, PREETI, ANGELINA, KIRAN ๐ŸŒธ 2588 Birchmount ๐ŸŒธ 2 Invergordon ๐ŸŒธ 647-702-8800 ๐ŸŒธ Please visit for a great erotic massage
  42. wilson holistic centre:
    ๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•Beautiful Korean girl working at 382 Wilson Ave ๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•โ˜Ž๏ธโ˜Ž๏ธ416-840-0071โค๏ธโค๏ธ
  43. wonderspa:
    ๐ŸŒบWonder spa,(9421Jane st unit127)call416-5000-800โ˜Ž๏ธbest massage in vaughan,Wednesday RMT available,๐Ÿ’„sexy face young girl Joey natural c cup,very good looking nice body slide,really popular ๐ŸŽlong hair Q Lucy good strong to relax oil massage, Relieve pain and remove stress,more experience,๐ŸŒนvery nice new girl CiCi, amazing the end,give you warm time,must try๐ŸŒน๐Ÿฅค
  44. AliceSpa:
    WEDNESDAY at ๐—”๐—Ÿ๐—œ๐—–๐—˜ ๐—ฆ๐—ฃ๐—” 416-298-0898, 4915 Steeles Ave. E, Scarborough 3 very nice girls here today. Open 10am to 9pm: CLOUDIA (11am-8pm): is Vietnamese, young, petite 5'2" & 96 Lbs, B Cup, best rim deep bbbj cim. $40 Room Fee + $80 (incl bbbj & fs). +$20 for rim/cim. Excellent open minded services. DORIS (12pm-9pm): from Taiwan, is young & petite with loing thick black hair, 105 Lbs
  45. Annie Spa:
    ๐Ÿ’‹๐Ÿ˜˜Sexy Petite Korean๐Ÿ‡ฐ๐Ÿ‡ทGirl Eva working with Sweet Beautiful Japanese New Cummer to Canada Feifei ๐Ÿ‡ฏ๐Ÿ‡ต and Sensual Pleasing Busty Coco๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ณtoday๐Ÿ’‹๐Ÿ˜˜Call or text ๐Ÿ“ฒ647-891-9688 or 416-291-8879๐Ÿ“ฒ
  46. EMSpa_schedule:
    Hey! Where have you been? Today (Wednesday), our amazing attendants are Carla โ€, Cici ๐Ÿ˜, Opal ๐Ÿคฉ, Sandy ๐Ÿค— and Yoyo ๐Ÿ˜. Call us at โ˜Ž๏ธ (905) 479-6668 โ˜Ž๏ธ to book your favourite and head on over to 7665 Kennedy Road, Unit 4, Markham!
  47. ForeverWarden:
    Wednesday at ๐Ÿซฆโค๏ธ๐Ÿ”ด๐ŸŸฅโ™พ๏ธ๐“•๐“ž๐“ก๐“”๐“ฅ๐“”๐“ก ๐“ข๐“Ÿ๐“โ™พ๏ธ๐ŸŸฅ๐Ÿ”ดโค๏ธ๐Ÿซฆ2190 Warden Ave, Unit 201, Scarborough ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฒ-๐Ÿด๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿฌ-๐Ÿณ๐Ÿด๐Ÿด๐Ÿณ: Bella, Cindy & Sasa. Bella is around 5โ€™3โ€ with a thin to medium build, C Cups, and a pleasing personality. She can offer dfk, bbbj and cfs as well as a good massage experience. Cindy is a slim beauty, 5โ€™4โ€, natural C Cups. Her massage is nice, her services will drive you wild & her finish is a dream
  48. HolidaySpa:
    Wednesday at ๐ŸŒด๐Ÿ˜Ž๐ŸŒ…๐“—๐“ธ๐“ต๐“ฒ๐“ญ๐“ช๐”‚ ๐“ข๐“น๐“ช๐ŸŒ…๐Ÿ˜Ž๐ŸŒด3517 Kennedy Rd, Unit 4, Scarborough โ˜Ž๏ธ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿณ-๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿณ-๐Ÿญ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿต๐Ÿตโ˜Ž๏ธ: FIONA, KIKI & CINDY. FIONA is a slim hottie with long dark hair, great melons and ass, and nice services. Kiki is very attractive, young, about 5โ€™4โ€ and 110 Lbs., slim with a banging body. Kiki is very popular for her great attitude and services. CINDY is slim & incredibly sexy
  49. SugarLoveSpa:
    Wednesday at โค๏ธ๐Ÿ’™ ๐Ÿ’œโŽ๐—ฆ๐—จ๐—š๐—”๐—ฅ ๐—Ÿ๐—ข๐—ฉ๐—˜ ๐—ฆ๐—ฃ๐—”โŽ ๐Ÿ’–๐Ÿ’—๐Ÿ’˜: SARAH, SUSAN, TIFFANY & VIVI. 1270 Finch Ave W (at Keele St), Unit 18. North York, ON โ˜Ž ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿณ-๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿฒ๐Ÿฑ-๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฒ๐Ÿด๐Ÿด โ˜Ž SARA is a beautiful Thai lady with C Cups, 160 Cms and 50 Kgs, with a full set of services to delight you. SUSAN is a small, slim & sexy Latina girl, 5'4" & 116 Lbs, with nice boobs and ass, very versatile services.
  50. ใ™ใฟใพใ›ใ‚“:
    Top notch line up with superstars like sunny , gabby , elena , kiki , Ella and cindy. At top notch wellness
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